tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post2178531623549524408..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: The Savvy Kiruv ConsumerMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-32913720346217217612008-07-24T18:32:00.000-04:002008-07-24T18:32:00.000-04:00Firstly, nice post.Secondly, I would have emailed ...Firstly, nice post.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, I would have emailed you regardng SJ. I was actually going to post another comment on his blog today, but it seems he's more into his adenda than an actualy dialogue. Sad, as I invited him to email me a few weeks ago. To bad he doesn't realize that my Ahavas Yisrael isn't based on mitzvah observance. Take care and have fun commenting on his blog.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to reply via email:<BR/>neilsharris@hotmail.comNeil Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797772082427806345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-22985531015204386972008-07-21T16:31:00.000-04:002008-07-21T16:31:00.000-04:00garnel ironheart said..." 2 CommentsClose this win...garnel ironheart said...<BR/><BR/>" 2 Comments<BR/>Close this window Jump to comment form<BR/><BR/>Blogger Rabbi Ben Hecht said...<BR/><BR/> I thank you for your kind word about Nishma and invite the readers to look at our website at www.nishma.org which features an article in the Commentary section -- entitled "Facts and Ideals:<BR/> Thoughts on the Conversion Controversy" -- that actually discusses the tendency for people to want simple answers. I also invite you take a look at our blog at http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/ which also features a post on this very same Jerusalem Post article.<BR/><BR/> In the post on our blog, though, we ask the question: what is the effect of Kiruv back upon Orthodoxy? Garnel is right, with kiruv, Orthodoxy is being marketed. There are of course falseness in some marketing but a good advertising man will tell you that lies usually fail because you get caught and in the long run lose. With marketing, though, you still try to promote the positive and downplay the negative. When such standatds are applied to something like religion, though, which is amenable to being affected by these forces of promotion, you can often fit the product to the advertisement -- and change certain facts if you do not like them. You can tell people, for example, that observing the laws of niddah will improve a couple's sexuality -- and make the couple believe that if it is not happening in their marriage it is because they are doing something wrong or God is punishing them. You can always invent an explanation to avoid the challenge that the underlying theory may not actually be 100% correct and face the fact that for some people niddah may hinder the sexuality within a marriage. But you don't want to hear that because it doesn't sell -- and there are not rigid criteria that make you have to accept this without giving reasons for ignoring this observation. So marketing a religion has greater flexibility which can allow one to reach out to more people -- but what gets lost may be the facts. The result can be that the one selling the product actually starts to believe the statements he/she is making -- and the result is not just a problem in marketing but in the veracity of the product itself.<BR/><BR/> Rabbi Ben Hecht<BR/><BR/> July 21, 2008 12:15 AM<BR/>Blogger Garnel Ironheart said...<BR/><BR/>I believe one of the effects of marketed kiruv is exemplified by the writer herself. Because of their methods, and because she saw through them, she will never believe that being frum is something of value but rather will always see it as just another phony lifestyle trying to lure you with its cultish ways."<BR/><BR/>In many settings you are going to have an incompetent facilitator. The point is that when trying to mkarve people who otherwise have no interest in Judaism the first thing that you have to do is get their attention. Once you have done that you have to have a more personaly tailered approach. This takes somebody who is both worldy and knowledgeably.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-60945861900846286272008-07-21T08:04:00.000-04:002008-07-21T08:04:00.000-04:00I believe one of the effects of marketed kiruv is ...I believe one of the effects of marketed kiruv is exemplified by the writer herself. Because of their methods, and because she saw through them, she will never believe that being frum is something of value but rather will always see it as just another phony lifestyle trying to lure you with its cultish ways.<BR/>In the end, miztvos lav lehenaos nitnu - we were not given the mitzvos for our personal benefit which means that we do them out of a sense of obedience and obligation to God. This is inherently difficult for someone from the "me, me, me" culture to grasp, yet to dumb it down and try to approach them on their secular basis leads to disillusionment when the religion can't deliver the goods.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-26655062225609371332008-07-21T00:15:00.000-04:002008-07-21T00:15:00.000-04:00I thank you for your kind word about Nishma and in...I thank you for your kind word about Nishma and invite the readers to look at our website at www.nishma.org which features an article in the Commentary section -- entitled "Facts and Ideals:<BR/>Thoughts on the Conversion Controversy" -- that actually discusses the tendency for people to want simple answers. I also invite you take a look at our blog at http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/ which also features a post on this very same Jerusalem Post article.<BR/><BR/>In the post on our blog, though, we ask the question: what is the effect of Kiruv back upon Orthodoxy? Garnel is right, with kiruv, Orthodoxy is being marketed. There are of course falseness in some marketing but a good advertising man will tell you that lies usually fail because you get caught and in the long run lose. With marketing, though, you still try to promote the positive and downplay the negative. When such standatds are applied to something like religion, though, which is amenable to being affected by these forces of promotion, you can often fit the product to the advertisement -- and change certain facts if you do not like them. You can tell people, for example, that observing the laws of niddah will improve a couple's sexuality -- and make the couple believe that if it is not happening in their marriage it is because they are doing something wrong or God is punishing them. You can always invent an explanation to avoid the challenge that the underlying theory may not actually be 100% correct and face the fact that for some people niddah may hinder the sexuality within a marriage. But you don't want to hear that because it doesn't sell -- and there are not rigid criteria that make you have to accept this without giving reasons for ignoring this observation. So marketing a religion has greater flexibility which can allow one to reach out to more people -- but what gets lost may be the facts. The result can be that the one selling the product actually starts to believe the statements he/she is making -- and the result is not just a problem in marketing but in the veracity of the product itself.<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.com