tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post4305573616098460485..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: More On UmanMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-24582009849626621432011-09-28T06:31:35.944-04:002011-09-28T06:31:35.944-04:00Oops, I must write about R' Chaim Brisker too ...Oops, I must write about R' Chaim Brisker too often. I meant "Why did RC*V* write..."michahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15903747662338530294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-9688585593574937632011-09-28T06:22:19.430-04:002011-09-28T06:22:19.430-04:00Mussar exists because someone looked around the ye...Mussar exists because someone looked around the yeshivos of Litta and saw that people were unable to find that spirituality inherent in Torah that R' Chaim Volozhiner describes in the last section of Nefesh haChaim.<br /><br />For that matter, why do you think RCS wrote the prior 3 sections?<br /><br />So yes, you do have to seek out spirtuality. I'm not saying that means mussar over chassidus over R' Hirsch's approach over something else. But our experience since the fall of the ghetto walls has proven that spirituality doesn't come on its own.<br /><br />Have you learned the first chapter of the Gra's Even Sheleimah? Someone who waters his garden with Torah but doesn't do the other work will simply have very healthy weeds.michahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15903747662338530294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-37180296269912134462011-09-28T05:06:47.933-04:002011-09-28T05:06:47.933-04:00Spirituality is a part of Torah. We find in the Ra...Spirituality is a part of Torah. We find in the Rambam that the path of Avraham was that of reason which was later approximated by the Greeks. The thing that was added by Divine Revelation was the path of perfection and attachment with God--for the individual not for the community. This is stated clearly in the Rambam. In fact the Rambam seems to imply a hierarchy of spiritual levels in the end I forgot what they all are but they all seemed to be related to different levels of attachment with God.<br />The Rambam is either talking about an expanded sense of Reason becoming able to perceive God (like the Chovot Levavot opinion) or some other type of spiritual sense. But the end result is the same. The personal searching for God is part and parcel of the type of Judaism advocated by the Rambam and Rebbi Nachman. Only in chasidic types of orthodox Judaism is spirituality considered to be off limits for all but the charismatic all powerful all knowing leader.Avraham https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822433921393627746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-22288152337232716622011-09-28T04:08:52.617-04:002011-09-28T04:08:52.617-04:00Meir says
This is not the Jewish way. Seeking spir...Meir says<br />This is not the Jewish way. Seeking spirituality. The Jewish way is to learn Torah and find it there. Not to look elsewhere which is akin to idol worship. Even mussar learning is frowned upon, unless it goes hand in hand with Torah learning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-28592886544264025452011-09-28T04:01:31.419-04:002011-09-28T04:01:31.419-04:00Micha stated the problem in the most intense, clea...Micha stated the problem in the most intense, clearest way possible.<br />Right now there is no O spirituality to speak of.<br />The person seeking spirituality either has to willfully confuse orthopraxy with spirituality, adding more and more chumeros that still don't satisfy his "ra'av ... tzom ... lishmoa es divrei Hashem." Or he has to find it where it exists.<br /><br />Rather than attack trips to Uman, we need to address the cause. We need to produce an Orthodoxy in which spirituality inheres in how we perform the mitzvos, and only secondarily in supplementary practices.<br /><br />This gives me a great opportunity to state one of the problems i see in breslov-- It is exactly because rebbi nachman presents a powerful path of spirituality that it can easily fall into the intermediate zone. For this reason i want to present my theses --that the spiritual path that Rebbi Nachman presents can only work well in the context of a Litvak yeshiva( --as self contradictory as this sounds) the Litvak context protects from the intermediate zone in my theory.<br />(Litvak context means here as in gemara rashi tosphot and musar.)Avraham https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822433921393627746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-26750332496574600692011-09-27T01:22:40.232-04:002011-09-27T01:22:40.232-04:00Redemptive theology is all well and good if that&#...Redemptive theology is all well and good if that's your bag. Still, I live in the here-and-now and don't expect the end of days any time soon. From my perspective, both Israel and the Diaspora are here to stay for a long, long time. Both have been instrumental in forming our culture and our peoplehood into who we are today. Jews in either place ignore the other at their peril.Friar Yid (not Shlita)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10311439778319103094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-42752172833722654572011-09-26T22:29:09.482-04:002011-09-26T22:29:09.482-04:00FY, I understand your point about the value of the...FY, I understand your point about the value of the diaspora but from a "redemptive" point of view I would disagree as to their eternal value. From the right wing Dati Leumi position, what is happening now is not dissimilar to what happened to our ancestors when we left Egypt or later on Babylon and Persia. A journey to Israel means never looking back because the spiritual gain once arriving makes all the history and growth of the golus secondary.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-67026524073721402142011-09-26T21:46:18.995-04:002011-09-26T21:46:18.995-04:00While I think it's worth holding a critical ey...While I think it's worth holding a critical eye to the practice of going on pilgrimages, I worry that Ravs Aviner and Kook may be swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. They are correct that the focal point for Judaism (and I would argue, certainly this is the case for Orthodoxy) is Israel, but just as it is intellectually dishonest for Jews to ignore/overlook Israel in favor of the Diaspora, so too it is wrong for people to focus entirely on Israel and forget about the important and significant history, culture and heritage of the Diaspora. For some, this may include visiting the graves and/or otherwise honoring the many tzadikim who lived in the Diaspora for the last 2000+ years. I see nothing wrong with this in principle.<br /><br />(Of course, I say this as someone who has never been on a pilgrimage and is not terribly keen on visiting the graves of tzadikim anywhere, whether in Israel or Uman.)Friar Yidhttp://friaryid.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-49614073844294506442011-09-26T18:16:10.013-04:002011-09-26T18:16:10.013-04:00The opening (and title) essay of the Alter of Novh...The opening (and title) essay of the Alter of Novhardok's Madreigas haAdam convinced me that the actual rupture was far earlier. It was what led from a natural expression of Judaism to the late 18th through early 20th century focus on Isms -- Chasidus, Hisnagdus, Lithuanian Yeshivish, Mussar, TiDE, "Chadash assur min haTorah" (an irony -- an ism about not having an ism), Hildesheimerian Neo-Orthodoxy, Mod-O, Religious Zionism, Anglo-Yeshivish, Israeli Litvak, etc, etc, etc....<br /><br />The second rupture only sealed the fate of halachic transmission. Starting with the Gra, R Dr Haym Soloveitchik's very own ancestry -- not the least of whom, his namesake -- were renown for changes to common practice because of textual considerations.<br /><br />In any case, the Alter of Nohardok says the fall of the ghetto led to a split between the yeshiva (being used in a buzzword sense of the ideals as transmitted in the ivory towers) and the street. The values and character one used to absorb naturally were no longer part of culture. Rav Yisrael Salanter therefore emerged, with a plan for how to inculcate consciously what in the past was absorbed mimetically.<br /><br />Whether or not Mussar is a solution for everyone -- and R' Yisrael himself would vehemently say it wasn't (having advocated different approaches in different cities and countries) -- this notion that we need programs to actively inculcate values and character stands.<br /><br />Yes, we got our culture further into this Catch-22. But we can follow earlier examples for how to get out of it.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-22020989239469375522011-09-26T17:59:05.598-04:002011-09-26T17:59:05.598-04:00Rav Berger, that is an excellent point. But here&...Rav Berger, that is an excellent point. But here's the problem:<br />For centuries (and longer) Judaism was passed down parent to child. A child learned to make kiddush not from a Youtube video or an Artscroll book but from watching his father do it. A child learned how to take challah from dough by watching her mother, not pulling out a kosher cookbook and looking at the measurement diagrams. As "Rupture and Reconstruction" noted this chain has been broken but here's the problem - the new generation of "frum" Jews all learned from "the book", not from genuine family tradition. Do they know how to teach they children or will they also expect the children to learn the way they did?Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-88802061831836647102011-09-26T16:21:04.377-04:002011-09-26T16:21:04.377-04:00You write "The constant emphasis on finding s...You write "<i>The constant emphasis on finding spirituality in all the wrong places and for all the wrong reasons is something that Orthodoxy has to address even as more people are led astray by these concepts.</i>"<br /><br />Whether or not the trip to Uman is one of "the wrong places", I don't think this is something the O community has to address. It's strategically wrong.<br /><br />Right now there is no O spirituality to speak of. Or, to put it as R' Dr Haym Soloveitchik did at the end of Rupture and Reconstruction: "<i>It is this rupture in the traditional religious sensibilities that underlies much of the transformation of contemporary Orthodoxy. Zealous to continue traditional Judaism unimpaired, religious Jews seek to ground their new emerging spirituality less on a now unattainable intimacy with Him, than on an intimacy with His Will, avidly eliciting Its intricate demands and saturating their daily lives with Its exactions. Having lost the touch of His presence, they seek now solace in the pressure of His yoke.</i>"<br /><br />The person seeking spirituality either has to willfully confuse orthopraxy with spirituality, adding more and more chumeros that still don't satisfy his "ra'av ... tzom ... lishmoa es divrei Hashem." Or he has to find it where it exists.<br /><br />Rather than attack trips to Uman, we need to address the cause. We need to produce an Orthodoxy in which spirituality inheres in how we perform the mitzvos, and only secondarily in supplementary practices.<br /><br />Until you produce this alternative, you can't ween people away from other modes of spirituality.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-55150817192452714352011-09-26T15:04:23.880-04:002011-09-26T15:04:23.880-04:00Anonymous,
Keep your lies to yourself.Anonymous,<br /><br />Keep your lies to yourself.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-41130025898262421032011-09-26T12:08:55.303-04:002011-09-26T12:08:55.303-04:00The only chasidim who go to uman are Satmar ones a...The only chasidim who go to uman are Satmar ones and they of course have a different attitude to the state. They hold its 'assur' to go to the kosel or anywhere else under Israeli occupation. The rest who go can hardly be classified as chasidim. A few down and outs, living a very bad existence. One cant blame them if it gives some meaning to their lives. The society trash seems to have decided breslav is for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-67779750143056085492011-09-26T07:37:16.923-04:002011-09-26T07:37:16.923-04:00The reason people go to Rebbi Nachman on Rosh Hash...The reason people go to Rebbi Nachman on Rosh Hashanah is because he said to do so. This is hard to miss. You might look in the Chayai Moharan which has a whole chapter on this subject. And also there Rebbi Nnachman said a few other choice statements that showed that he felt this was a very high service. This is a totally different subject than going to Uman to say the Tikun Klali. <br />This is not a legitimate or honest mistake. Before a famous "rabbi" makes a comment on Rebbi Nachman he ought to have read the relevant material. I don't offer opinions about the experiment done in CERN about neutrinos and no one should comment about a subject they know nothing about. <br />First learn the material and then make your comment and if possible back up your comment with a rational argument. <br />If a rabbi would go through these seemly simple steps I would have nothing to answer. But here we are missing all the steps. This would get a failing mark in any class.Avraham https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822433921393627746noreply@blogger.com