tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post4494926629474978544..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: The Reality They Live InMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-39314553256400978182011-05-11T11:53:39.375-04:002011-05-11T11:53:39.375-04:00Bob, the problem with that is his tendency to publ...Bob, the problem with that is his tendency to publicly air what he perceives are the problems of other groups. He has no trouble loudly attacking those he disagrees with so the sudden need for quiet discussion would be inconsistent.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-29327341811684567582011-05-11T11:16:31.405-04:002011-05-11T11:16:31.405-04:00In he found an internal problem, don't you thi...In he found an internal problem, don't you think he'd air it internally?Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-82102892532033570472011-05-09T14:40:21.945-04:002011-05-09T14:40:21.945-04:00> it would be nice if Shafran could turn his ve...> it would be nice if Shafran could turn his very keen fault-finding abilities towards his own organization<br /><br />Ain't no blindess like selective blindness.Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-23625736674569744662011-05-09T12:45:10.493-04:002011-05-09T12:45:10.493-04:00Well put. I think the heckscher tzedek is problem...Well put. I think the heckscher tzedek is problematic for a number of reasons (not least of which is its collection of rather Byzantine rules with attendant loopholes), but your point about its being a response to a fairly serious situation is a good one. Aguda, as usual, has completely missed the boat-- it would be nice if Shafran could turn his very keen fault-finding abilities towards his own organization, and perhaps improve its credibility.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-73498473903588582622011-05-08T15:51:38.720-04:002011-05-08T15:51:38.720-04:00I both agree and disagree. Yes, you're right ...I both agree and disagree. Yes, you're right about where politics interacts with ethics and this is my concern about Magen Tzedek, that it will get hijacked by leftist dogooders who make it an ideological, rather than "halachic" symbol to better assuage their secular consciences.<br />On the other hand, politics also interacts with halacha. Look at examples other blogs have brought where certain products were denied hechshers for reasons that had nothing to do with the production of the food. I recall a few years ago there was a story about a hostel in Yerushalayim that identified itself as Conservative and was denied a hechsher despite meeting the Rabbanut's criteria simply because of political affiliation. Neither side can claim the high ground here.Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-29178007566030976752011-05-08T13:19:24.134-04:002011-05-08T13:19:24.134-04:00Once we start getting beyond kashrut as such, we g...Once we start getting beyond kashrut as such, we get into a realm where politics interacts with ethics, possibly negating the ethics! Leftwing groups, Jewish or not, typically consider traditional Torah morality to be passe at best and repressive at worst, but put forward a rainbow of alternative moralities based on their subjective sociopolitical leanings.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-16492733916364880432011-05-08T04:09:00.063-04:002011-05-08T04:09:00.063-04:00Bob, I'm not aware of the Conservatives offeri...Bob, I'm not aware of the Conservatives offering kosher supervision to products so the question is theoretical. I would guess that they would, however, since the Magen Tzedek people are Conservative themselves.<br /><br />YBD, I agree but in this issue they've cleverly tapped into an actual Jewish issue as well and out-machmired the Agudah for once which probably explains the fierce response.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-84112914373622180252011-05-07T17:04:24.650-04:002011-05-07T17:04:24.650-04:00Although it is praiseworthy to insist on ethical p...Although it is praiseworthy to insist on ethical principles to be followed by Jewish businesses, I can only think that the fact that the Conservative Movement came up with this is part of the liberal Jewish belief that "to be a good Jew one must be a political progressive" or that "Judaism=Political Liberalism" and nothing more. The Conservative Movement (like the Reform) are in a long-term crisis and are in decline. I have to think that this move is, in the end, an attempt to tap into this political liberalism in a futile attempt to show they are still relevant, especially since the Reform movement is usually seen to be taking the lead in the "Judaism-Political Liberalism". In other works, they are saying "me too" in order to attract support.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-2468833727401635462011-05-06T19:11:44.140-04:002011-05-06T19:11:44.140-04:00If a Conservative rabbi gave a hechsher to a produ...If a Conservative rabbi gave a hechsher to a product, and not some reputable Orthodox organization or rabbi, would we expect Magen Tzedek to ignore the product?Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-5639317966855112252011-05-06T14:13:17.802-04:002011-05-06T14:13:17.802-04:00The info on the Magen Tzedek website clearly state...The info on the Magen Tzedek website clearly states that the symbol will only be give to products that have a valid kosher supervision. In other words, only once the OU or whoever says it's kosher can the company then get a Magen Tzedek.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-47386725751017135922011-05-06T13:28:17.697-04:002011-05-06T13:28:17.697-04:00@ Bob, Not that I support Conservative, if I read ...@ Bob, Not that I support Conservative, if I read Garnel correctly a product must have a kosher hechsher first before Magen Tzedek will give it a secondary certification. Not saying what kind of kosher hechsher it must be; I go by O-U (and others) but know people who only go by heimishe hechsherim, for example.BBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-1687637443354098702011-05-06T13:10:09.500-04:002011-05-06T13:10:09.500-04:00Well-meaning or not, can Conservative clergy be tr...Well-meaning or not, can Conservative clergy be trusted to be accurate about the baseline kashrut of products they supervise?<br /><br />Since they have few contituents who care deeply about kashrut in first place, we might wonder whom they mean to impress. <br /><br />Once we get onto the topic of consumer fraud, we can wonder about the Conservative movement itself, which is based not on halachic principle but on "have your cake and eat it, too." This movement is a (maybe, not so) living, breathing example of religious consumer fraud.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.com