tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post4637958467597404960..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: Adding That Will Lead to SubtractingMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-47836241323243580012009-06-15T10:08:52.119-04:002009-06-15T10:08:52.119-04:00"There is a strong movement in our world to n..."There is a strong movement in our world to neutralize gender -- make men and women equal. While to some extent this has merit, it is fundamental to Torah that there is a distinction between the two genders."<br /><br />Women still don't have penises, and men can't have babies. So, the primary and obvious distinctions aren't going anywhere.<br /><br />That said, I've heard more than one rabbi explain to me why women "can't" learn Gemara (apparently, their brains just aren't made that way). This kind of idiocy needs to be dropped from OJ, and the sooner, the better. If women "can't" learn Gemara, there would be no point in fobidding it (no law against women flapping their arms and flying, is there?). Likewise, if a woman learns Shulchan Aruch well enough, is there any rational reason to deny her the distinction that would cheerfully be accorded to a man who had learned the same thing? More importantly, if two people want to get a divorce, is there some good reason for the Torah and the rabbis to rig a system to ensure that the woman is placed at a terrible disadvantage? Do we really need to cling to ideas that may have had some practical application in the bronze age, but currently do nothing but work injustice?<br /><br />The fact is, there are a number of real differences between men and women, and I have no particular inclination to argue for the erasing of these. That said, the cause of the Torah is not advanced by exaggerating these differences to the point of calling ridicule upon ourselves.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-31710627998950882992009-06-14T18:16:08.520-04:002009-06-14T18:16:08.520-04:00In a broader sense, I think the problem is that th...In a broader sense, I think the problem is that there would seem to be two constructs within the overall system of Orthodox Judaism that are often at loggerhead with each other. One is the idea that the precision of Jewish Ethics is defined by the precision of the Halachich system and that deviations from this system -- whether to the right or the left -- are problematic. The other is the concept of lifnim meshurat hadin or kadesh atzmecha b'mutar lach which not only gives but instructs the Jew to go beyond the law and exend oneself beyond the demands of the Halacha. In response to Garnel, the people of Shira Chadasha may respond that while there is no precise halachic requirement to wait for 10 women before beginning a service, it is an act lifnim meshurat hadin that extends a respect to other human beings, i.e. women, beyond the requirements of the strict Halacha. They may further quote the rule of Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom that a man may not divorce a wife without her consent as an indication of how Jewish practice extends beyond the strict definition of the Halacha as we have further inculcated the values of Torah and wish to extend these values. The issue of whether Shira Chadasha's behaviour is acceptable within the parameters of Jewish Thought or not cannot be answered by a simple presentation of the Halacha regarding its necessity or permissibility. It gets down to a discussion of the motivations that we may apply in extending a law.<br /><br />Having said all this, I do, though, feel the following -- and in a certain way I am in agreement with Garnel. While I would not say that we are never to be influenced by developments in the secular world around us -- I think Torah throughout the ages has integrated concepts from the outside world and, as we say, be mekadesh them -- but we must be careful of not seeing the constructs of Torah because of these influences. There is a strong movement in our world to neutralize gender -- make men and women equal. While to some extent this has merit, it is fundamental to Torah that there is a distinction between the two genders. Standards of waiting for a minyon of men and a similar count of 10 of women challenges this very principle. Shira Chadasha no doubt has its arguments why this is an action lifnim meshurat hadin. What they have to address, though, is the negation of the reality of gender distinction within Torah which can never meet the secular standards of gender equality in our general world.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben HechtRabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-20662302316107071492009-06-11T16:02:31.147-04:002009-06-11T16:02:31.147-04:00Let me give you a relevant example, David. I don&...Let me give you a relevant example, David. I don't have a problem with your views, despite my vigorous disagreement with them. You came by them honestly, you don't pretend to be something you're not and you don't try to modify what you see as the truth to fit your own biases. When you're uncomfortable with something, you face up to it. Fine.<br /><br />In this case, it isn't so much the religious beliefs in question as the way people are being essentially dishonest. There is a halachic process that is used in determining various issues and part of being Orthodox is a commitment to abide by the system even when the answer you want isn't forthcoming. For these folks it's the opposite. They want to call themselves Orthodox, they want to say they're living according to halacha but they're being selective and when halacha crosses them they avoid it.<br />In that way, Reform is far more honest than they are.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-26339421031609403602009-06-11T15:33:45.907-04:002009-06-11T15:33:45.907-04:00I don't mean to be obstinate, but you're j...I don't mean to be obstinate, but you're just saying that you have a problem with everyone who doesn't agree that Orthodox Judaism is perfect the way it is.<br /><br />Once again channeling Jacob Stein, you say that people who would like to see changes in the way we do some things are "selfish." Well, since you're so stuck on the way things are, isn't it possible that, in denying others the opportunity to develop a more vibrant and meaningful Judaism, you're being selfish? All of Judaism, as currently practiced, represents changes from Judaism as formerly practiced. The Orthodox tendency to insist that we always did it exactly this way (see, e.g., Hasidic coloring books depicting Moshe Rabbeinu in a shtreimel) is, to my mind, rather unfortunate and certainly counterproductive.<br /><br />How about limiting your comments to an explanation of why your opponents' views are wrong, or their theology is in error? Wouldn't that cover it? Why do you find it so difficult to refrain from an attempt to diminish them as people? My personal guess: it's the Jake Stein business again-- you can't show that they're wrong, so you just dismiss them as defective.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-68796124173807046462009-06-11T13:53:41.281-04:002009-06-11T13:53:41.281-04:00The old line from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail...The old line from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail is relevant here: Do you do this for God's glory, or for your own?<br />I have no problem with differeing theological opinions that are based on an honest desire to be the best Jew possible. I have a problem with the people who don't want to change the way they are but expect Judaism to change to accomodate their whims. I do find that selfish.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-54205456482868098972009-06-11T11:46:57.355-04:002009-06-11T11:46:57.355-04:00"The present (sic) of no, ten or a hundred wo..."The present (sic) of no, ten or a hundred women on the other side of the mechitzah is irrelevant as to whether this tzibur is formed."<br /><br />It's not hard to understand why some people might be disposed to view a halakha which deems their "present" (to say nothing of their past and future) "irrelevant" to be a bit behind the times.<br /><br />Moreover, while you can quibble with them, I genuinely wish you would throttle your inner Jacob Stein, and stop attributing the opinions of others to some sort of defect. One need not be intellectually or emotionally immature to object to a halakhic ruling (indeed, didn't you object to the ruling in what some of the Gedolei Yisroel called the "bitches on buses problem?").<br /><br />Please recite this mantra at least twice before posting on these topics in the future:<br /><br />"The mere holding of a theological opinion which differs from my own is not prima facie evidence of pathology or character flaws."<br /><br />Thank you.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.com