tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post4762829371903102046..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: Shoot the Messenger, Not the MessageMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-57461533116065945932007-10-23T18:05:00.000-04:002007-10-23T18:05:00.000-04:00> that his/her message is the correct on and that ...> that his/her message is the correct on and that you are misguided and, in fact the one preventing the geula, the redemption.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Yeah, but he's wrong and I'm right because I says so.<BR/><BR/>8-)<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, one reason the Chareidi world has been able to take such a defining and authoritative position within the Torah world is not because of superior education or spiritual accomplishment but because they believe so strongly that they are the defining force in Judaism that this belief has affected the other Torah observant groups to the point that they believe this too. The average Modern Orthodox guy who may otherwise believe he is being perfectly faithful to Toras Moshe will see his Chareidi counterpart as "more religious" for no other real reason than that this impression has been pummelled into everyone's heads for the last century.<BR/><BR/>My point is that this belief is just that - a belief not substantiated by the facts on the ground. A uniform and speaking Yeshivish doesn't make you a better Jew. And it's time that the reest of the Torah world united and started pushing back with their own belief - faith in God, love of his Torah, and honest practice of his Law are what makes a Jew a good one and no other standard need be accepted. If enough people can start to believe this, then many people who feel disenfranchised right now because they see the Chareidi world as their only "genuine" Jewish option might find their way back into the fold. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Torah is complex and yes, God wants us to think but success in this world is sometimes accomplished more by determination than intellectual activity.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-66764395454706368552007-10-23T16:55:00.000-04:002007-10-23T16:55:00.000-04:00The problem with focusing of the messenger and not...The problem with focusing of the messenger and not the message is that the messenger with whom you vehemently disagree believes, as strongly as you do, that his/her message is the correct on and that you are misguided and, in fact the one preventing the geula, the redemption.<BR/><BR/>While I agree with your basic thesis, that often when people reject Torah it is because of a person, the question still remains regarding how to deal with this person. One possibility, as you point out, is to show that the person is actually acting contrary to Torah. But that becomes your opinion because the person argues that he/she is correct al pi Torah. And then you have the great difficulty of proving the person wrong for we all know how there always seems a way for someone to justify their position. And then there is the challenge heard in some circles, that there is a problem with Torah because it can so easily be perverted.<BR/><BR/>It is clear that that there is a need for people such as yourself step up and voice your opinion and your view of Torah. The story of the van is such a case in point for, while I would not say that it was absolutely necessary halachically for the movement of seats to have occurred, there is also no doubt that this behaviour also can be defined as praiseworthy. It was important to make your point in the context of actually reaching the conclusion that was desired by the thugs in the bus case. The point is that the present climate makes individuals forget the actual vast array of values inherent in Torah, often creating a dialectic. In critiquing the thugs who beat up the couple who did not want to move, the idea of separate seating in this situation is also challenged. Clarity of the issue, with the recognition of its complexity is important. <BR/><BR/>Beyond actual behavior, to truly make a difference, we have to enunciate the natural complexity of Torah. Simply, God wanted his followers to think and so Torah demands thought. As with any complex system, those who strive for simplicity will be able to pervert it by rejecting the complexity and reading the system with simplicity. The essence of simplicity is the inability to see conflict of values and the give-and-take of the solution. Torah is all about the recognition that in every tumah there is some tahara and in every tahor there is some tumah (Maharal). <BR/><BR/>We cannot just challenge the messenger. We have to show that the message is incorrect. That usualy can't be done head on as he/she will also have sources etc. You have to take it to the level of complexity -- and how one is balancing the conflict of values inherent in all situations. Thugs usually can only think in black-and-white -- and then you have them for it is then that you can show that it is actually Torah that is absent in their thinking. Take a look at my article "In the Name of Religion" at http://www.nishma.org/articles/insight/insight5762-01.htm for more on this theme. <BR/><BR/>I believe that this is the only way to clarify who really is speaking for Torah.Nishmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04237299801109329429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-73548709804175508032007-10-23T13:40:00.000-04:002007-10-23T13:40:00.000-04:00The point of the story was that it was agreed upon...The point of the story was that it was agreed upon and everyone was more comfortable with the seat switch. No one had to be forced into doing something they don't want.<BR/><BR/>What is fanaticism, after all? It's both an extreme dedication to a particular belief and the determined idea that YOU must accept these beliefs no matter what your personal opinion is.<BR/><BR/>You may not care about mixed seating. I think it's important but I'm only willing to try and channge your mind through discussion. Yelling, insulting and physical force must always be unacceptable.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-51256258647724684472007-10-23T12:55:00.000-04:002007-10-23T12:55:00.000-04:00So, separate seating on public transportation is n...So, separate seating on public transportation is not fanaticism?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com