tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post5871210260845532928..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: Racism Pure and SimpleMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-38330543819559766402010-01-28T11:28:44.808-05:002010-01-28T11:28:44.808-05:00It's not an exclusively Orthodox problem (nor ...It's not an exclusively Orthodox problem (nor did I claim that it was). You're all quite right-- bigotry exists elsewhere, too, and, while I might lament it, I'd never deny it.<br /><br />Nevertheless, I did give some reasons why Orthodoxy lends itself to this sort of thing. Nothing any of you have said (e.g., "no it doesn't!" "Yeckis do it, too!") would seem to be evidence to the contrary.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-25654750540325337742010-01-28T02:15:31.705-05:002010-01-28T02:15:31.705-05:00In my experience in Israel, there isn't much o...In my experience in Israel, there isn't much of this left in the Dati-Leumi community. <br /><br />I do remember a terrible example of this type of disgusting behavior back in 1980, but from a different direction. A cousin of mine had married a Yemenite man, who was an absolute 'mench' but it didn't work out and they divorced. She later married a Moroccan, who happened to be pretty much of a bum. The first time that I met him was when I had a night off in the army. I was young, very idealistic, and when he started saying all kinds of disgusting things about Yemenites because of their darker skins, I was absolutely amazed and disgusted.<br /><br />I also recall a cousin of mine who had changed his 'Europeanized' last name to a Hebrew one some thirty five or forty years ago upon making aliyah. A few years ago when I saw him after many years it turned out that one of his sons who had become Haredi changed it back to the 'Europeanized' name. When I asked why, he said that the Hebrew name sounded sort of Sefardi, and it would hurt the grandchildren's shidduch chances. I told him that if it was me, anyone who didnt want to go out with me or my kids because of that could kiss my a$$.Shalom, Cherry Hillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-67407489236949530432010-01-27T15:58:13.541-05:002010-01-27T15:58:13.541-05:00David, Rav Scher is quite right about it not being...David, Rav Scher is quite right about it not being a specifically Orthodox problem. Enlightened German non-religious Jews were quite inclined to see themselves as superior to the Ost Juden. My father recalls that even in the camps during the war the German Jews would not associate with the Polish and Russian ones.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-24073841540784686062010-01-27T14:58:15.455-05:002010-01-27T14:58:15.455-05:00"Dina D'malchuta dina"? what about ..."Dina D'malchuta dina"? what about "V'ahavtah l'rayacha Kamocha"? or "Lo tisna et acheecha b'levov'cha"?Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-65213934925747685402010-01-27T12:08:21.891-05:002010-01-27T12:08:21.891-05:00E-man, the rule of 'dina d'malchuta dina&#...E-man, the rule of 'dina d'malchuta dina' may very well apply in Israel. The Rishonim were divided on the issue; both on whether it applies, and how it applies. The same is true for Ahronim. Many Ahronim would hold today that it applies as long as the law does not defy halacha, for instance.<br /><br />See, for instance, Rav Zevin's summary at the end of that erech in Encyclopedia Talmudit.Mordechai Y. Scherhttp://www.kolberamah.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-28456877344962865852010-01-27T11:29:22.392-05:002010-01-27T11:29:22.392-05:00I agree with you 100 percent garnel. I think these...I agree with you 100 percent garnel. I think these people are perverting our religion. <br /><br />David- orthodox judaism does not promote anything you just said. True there are people that act that way, but judaism does not promote it.<br /><br />Also garnel, I believe that dina demalchusa dina does not apply in eretz yisroel. I remember learning that sugya in gittin.That doesn't mean it is right, but I don,t think that is an issue. However, there are a lot of halachic issues otherwise. Like sinas chinam and other things.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-23825359467506091562010-01-27T11:26:33.333-05:002010-01-27T11:26:33.333-05:00As a side comment to David's attributing this ...As a side comment to David's attributing this to an Orthodox attitude: to what do you attribute the Galveston Plan attitude. Wealthy Reform Jews, of German origin, in NY funded shipping Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe to America to the Western US in order to avoid the embarrassment of having these religious ostjuden arrive in the East. What appears as magnanimous on the surface, was an expensive effort to avoid social embarrassment for the assimilating elites in NY, and to get the unstoppable immigration to land out West where they would be swallowed up and forgotten.<br /><br />Also an 'Orthodox' thing? Or maybe just a desperate desire to assimilate coupled with lack of respect for more 'traditional' appearing Jews and Judaism?Mordechai Y. Scherhttp://www.kolberamah.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-59859988836477361842010-01-27T11:15:54.131-05:002010-01-27T11:15:54.131-05:00This isn't an 'Orthodox' problem in it...This isn't an 'Orthodox' problem in its origin; it is Ashkenazi overall. It started as a widespread European-origin chauvenism lording it over the poor, unsophisticated, unenlightened immigrants being saved from North Africa, Yemen, etc. by the gracious, cultured elites who realized their responsibility to their poor, unfortunate brethren.<br /><br />Seriously, though, at the same time that the massive efforts were successful to bring Jews home from North Africa, Yemen, Iraq, etc.; the attitude of the Ashkenazi ruling class towards these people was despicable. The tremendous work, self-sacrifice, and expense (when their was no economy to support this) is a proud moment in our history. But Sfardim of all sorts were treated as second class citizens by communist left-wingers the same as they were treated by religious Ashkenzim once they arrived in Israel. Only now, the average Israeli has largely outgrown such bigotry (much as I believe most Americans have outgrown color bigotry), while it persists among (mostly Hareidi) religious Ashkenazim. Even so, I still remember a non-religious relative (now in his late 80s) commenting one day when noticing one of the first Ethiopian Jewish women on the streets of Jerusalem, "you wouldn't marry a black woman, would you?"<br /><br />For what it is worth, I will point out that I truly didn't notice any of this first hand in the Religious Zionist circles I was educated in. The beit midrash in Mercaz Harav was truly mixed. The rabbinic staff of many of the yeshivot hesder was truly mixed. (When Har Etzion appointed new heads of yeshiva a while back, one was Ashkenazi and one Sfardi.) Youth groups are/were mixed. When young couples met and married, many of them were from mixed backgrounds, as borne out by many of my friends' homes today (we are in our 50s and 60s).<br /><br />The bigotry is a despicable, poisoning remnant of the Ashkenazi exile. It is an attitude that was displayed by religious and non-religious both. As much of the hareidi sub-culture refuses to evolve (and improve!) with organic developments brought on by our renewal in Israel, this is a result.<br /><br />It is poison. It is sick. It is despicable. It has no justification of any sort. It has no place in the Jewish world.Mordechai Y. Scherhttp://www.kolberamah.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-90819628820374674942010-01-27T10:15:19.094-05:002010-01-27T10:15:19.094-05:00Interesting but, tragically, not surprising. Orth...Interesting but, tragically, not surprising. Orthodox Judaism encourages lots of isolationism-- we look down on goyim, we look down on Jews who aren't sufficiently frum, or don't wear the right kippot. Why not look down on people who were born into some other ethnicity? Clearly, if being a pasty-faced, black-hatted Ashkenazi was good enough for Moishe Rabbeinu, it should be good enough for those Sephardim, too, and if they don't like being treated like garbage, they should have thought of that before they decided to pick zeidas who weren't born in Poland.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-54039910008110742382010-01-27T00:15:52.357-05:002010-01-27T00:15:52.357-05:00racism? I think not. Bigotry yes.
I realize that ...racism? I think not. Bigotry yes.<br /> I realize that Israelis call any dispute racism, however following that logic one allows Israel to be called apartheid. Besides Jews are from the same racial stockDanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988284974987904623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-76811296208902256352010-01-26T21:26:24.720-05:002010-01-26T21:26:24.720-05:00Ridiculous!Ridiculous!nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07673099548876125906noreply@blogger.com