tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post6067776642610537169..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: The Slippery Slope of DeathMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-62339298207875904752009-04-16T12:35:00.000-04:002009-04-16T12:35:00.000-04:00read my blog. XDread my blog. XDSJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10704885840004960450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-59999154193269329862009-04-14T13:11:00.000-04:002009-04-14T13:11:00.000-04:00"I would submit that the vast majority of secular ..."I would submit that the vast majority of secular people who hold that stealing is wrong quitely believe that because they don't want to be stolen from."<br /><br />Not necessarily true, but neither of us has the stats on that. One could be an honest humanist, and simply believe that it's wrong, objectively, to steal. Besides, one could just as easily claim that the vast majority of religious people who don't steal are worried that God would punish them if they did. What's the objective moral difference between those two positions?<br /><br />"Think of some common examples. How many people swipe towels from hotels when there's no chance of getting caught?"<br /><br />Plenty. How many of them are religious people? Plenty, I'd wager. The only difference is that believers probably use different rationalizations when they steal. I'm sure that, if you were to ask Rabbi Leib Pinter, shlita, why he swindled the government out of $43 million, he'd give you a great Talmudic reason (or, over the next few years of his sentence, will think of some good ones). If you asked Sholom Rubashkin why he abused his workers and disregarded various federal laws, he'd also have a few good Torah-based reasons.<br /><br />And I'm pretty sure that Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens wouldn't steal or abuse people, even if they thought they could get away with it.<br /><br />In my own case, while I don't believe that God gave us the Torah, I'd never steal, because I think it's morally wrong. If I were a really clever talmid chacham, I could point to all sorts of reasons in the Torah for why I could be less honest in my business dealings with gentiles than with Jews. Because of my secular values, however, I would never do such a thing, as it shocks my conscience (and, yes, secular people have consciences!).Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-48178471363780975042009-04-14T12:15:00.000-04:002009-04-14T12:15:00.000-04:00I would disagree and I'll tell you why.
The examp...I would disagree and I'll tell you why.<br /><br />The examples you brought as being "wrong" in the absolute sense all have one thing in common: they are activities that involve hurting someone else, whereas with euthanasia the only person hurt is the person himself/herself.<br /><br />However, the idea that something is wrong if it hurts someone else is tied into a very basic idea: if I steal from you, you can steal from me. Hence stealing is wrong because I might be hurt by it. <br /><br />I would submit that the vast majority of secular people who hold that stealing is wrong quitely believe that because they don't want to be stolen from. If you could guarantee them impunity from retaliation, how many would then go steal?<br /><br />Think of some common examples. How many people swipe towels from hotels when there's no chance of getting caught? During the Rodney King riots or Hurricane Katrina aftermath, how many people who would otherwise insist stealing is wrong take part in the looting because they knew they'd get away with it?<br /><br />So ultimately it all comes down to impunity. If I run the risk of being harmed by a particular action, I outlaw it for everybody and declare it wrong.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-58895101467461480592009-04-14T11:39:00.000-04:002009-04-14T11:39:00.000-04:00I agree with most of this, but I think you may be ...I agree with most of this, but I think you may be overreaching with your claim about secularism. I recently saw a transcript of a debate between noted secularist Sam Harris and noted non-secularist Rick Warren. Harris was not-- and did not consider himself-- a moral relativist.<br /><br />Many (probably most) secular folks would agree that such things as stealing, murder, rape, etc. are "wrong" in the absolute sense.<br /><br />I think it's a common misconception among the religious that nobody else can possibly be moral or hold any views beyond moral relativism.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752938979399977997noreply@blogger.com