tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post7249153063403513405..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: Whose Fault Is Atheism?Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-9242874222245053212013-12-26T23:26:29.827-05:002013-12-26T23:26:29.827-05:00Sir Ironheart, Temujin has been very busy lately w...Sir Ironheart, Temujin has been very busy lately with moving his flocks, scouting and consolidating tribal lands...the usual parnassa stuff... and so, he guards his time jealously, resenting anything that steals minutes from his allotted days. But he six or seven hours one spent this evening carefully reading your excellent posts and their comments going back to July have been very well spent indeed. Thank you for the wisdom, the ideas, the Torah and the pleasure!Temujinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-75082414788110520072013-12-26T03:42:28.189-05:002013-12-26T03:42:28.189-05:00Rabbi Hecht,
Thanks for the link to your HuffPost...Rabbi Hecht,<br /><br />Thanks for the link to your HuffPost piece. (I'm commenting here because the login there is too cumbersome.) I very much appreciate your emphasis on "thinking" and respecting the fact that with freedom of thought comes the freedom to err, to arrive at incorrect conclusions insofar as belief. It's an important perspective to give over, and I wish more frum folks shared it.<br /><br />The only place we differ is in our perception of who is doing the "erring". I find it hard to understand how unbiased thinking can lead a person to believe that the Torah is the word of God or that the supernatural narratives of the Torah are literally/historically true. Yes, I recognize that this has been an enormously "useful" error, being largely responsible for the survival of the Jewish people until today, but at the same time my integrity as a Jew requires me to separate truth from falsity to the best of my ability. So I have to call it like I see it.<br /><br />Also, know that the word "atheist" as a blanket term is not so useful. Because while I'm more of an atheist regarding the Biblical God, I'm a solid agnostic where it comes to the idea of Creator of the universe. (Read <a href="http://atheodoxjew.blogspot.com/2013/11/what-i-mean-when-i-say-im-atheist.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for more on that.) So in order to talk about belief or lack thereof, you really have to be clear what specific idea of God or what belief exactly you're referring to.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks again. Best, AJAtheodox Jewhttp://atheodoxjew.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-63615227234505024082013-12-25T14:29:41.085-05:002013-12-25T14:29:41.085-05:00To throw my two cents into this dialogue, I would ...To throw my two cents into this dialogue, I would ask all to take a look at my latest Huffington Post blog As a Man of God, I See the Value in Atheism at http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/rabbi-ben-hecht/atheism-persecution-_b_4496236.html<br /><br /><br />The issue is thought. The problem is dogmatism be it theist or atheist. The call of HaKadosh Baruch Hu is for Man to think and, to allow for such ability, a human being must also have the possibility of erring in that process. In my article, I refer to Yitro who tried every avodah zara until he found Hashem -- he was given the chance to think and discover God on his own. This, of course, is the story of Avraham Avinu. <br /><br />People in our world, perhaps through the advancements of science and the effects of the Enlightenment, value thought (on some level) -- and, as such, they are clearly going to reject any dogmatic theism based on an argument of 'just believe because I am right'. Hopefully, this will get someone to really think. The result however may also be a dogmatic atheism, which we are also seeing, with the person himself/herself just making the same argument "because I am right." The call of Torah must be to the path of thought -- which is really the essence of our value of limud haTorah.<br /><br />Rabbi Ben Hecht<br />Rabbi Ben Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13424122479105225620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-82843298979853481832013-12-23T19:11:31.050-05:002013-12-23T19:11:31.050-05:00Tehillim chapter 14, verse 1:
The degenerate has ...<b><i>Tehillim</i> chapter 14, verse 1: </b><br />The degenerate has thought in his mind: <br />“There is no G_d.”Mr. Cohenhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/DerechEmet/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-43556485292097250272013-12-23T08:26:28.688-05:002013-12-23T08:26:28.688-05:00AJ, that's a complete misunderstanding of what...AJ, that's a complete misunderstanding of what Avraham Avinu, a"h, stood for. Yes we emphasize the "Ivri" part of it because he was against idolatry but he and his descendants (us) weren't simply about opposing dominant beliefs but about spreading the word that the world has a Leader who guides everything. Using him to justify your lack of belief opposed what he stood for just as much as idolatry did.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-78683965893852767642013-12-23T00:05:35.880-05:002013-12-23T00:05:35.880-05:00I'm sure there are atheists who reject God on ...I'm sure there are atheists who reject God on account of "religion gone bad".<br /><br />But that's just ONE reason for atheism. For me, whose "fault" is atheism? AVRAHAM AVINU's. He and all the greats after him who refused to accept a set of beliefs simply because everyone around him believed it, people who rejected falsity and took up the dogged search for truth even if that truth led them to surprising places, places which caused them to be rejected by the rest of society, those are the greats who - for people like me - serve not as the "fault" for atheism, but as the INSPIRATION for it.Atheodox Jewhttp://atheodoxjew.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-45367902679344182362013-12-22T10:23:01.870-05:002013-12-22T10:23:01.870-05:00I am reading a book about secular thinkers like Th...I am reading a book about secular thinkers like Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. It is really incredible how long this debate goes on about the value of religion. The greatest intellectuals of that time were convinced that the best footing for the United States was going to be one that one hundred percent repudiated G-d in the workings of the country; and one hundred percent disallowed a religious litmus test for full citizenship and rights. This of course was all very novel at the time.<br /><br />It is truly amazing to me how well the US has done by purposely excluding and eviscerating the role of belief and religion in the legal framework. I believe that the founders would have been eviscerated by orthodox rabbis – they are very close to a Christopher Hitchens on this subject. Yet the society they began is simply the true “light unto the nations” that Judaism seeks to be. The world has benefited directly from the values pioneered by the United States in our system of world governance, and individual countries fight more and more for their own Bill of Rights and obligations to NOT abrige the rights of others.<br /><br />Religious people purposely ignore the contributions of the Enlightenment, as the Enlightenment values are in many ways of a higher quality than the religious ones. Of course, the Enlightenment has a way to go on giving life meaning – which is chiefly why religion still thrives. The future of religion may wind up being what the Dalai Lama advocates: one religion founded on shared principles. Of course this is not acceptable to organized religion today of the fundamentalist strain.<br /><br />TuviaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-42818614259011981902013-12-22T08:17:14.069-05:002013-12-22T08:17:14.069-05:00>> instead see it for what it is: a symptom ...>> instead see it for what it is: a symptom of our illness as a religion and a call to improve ourselves. Should we do that, should we be able to restore Judaism as a consistent, moral order it would solve this problem and bring our final redemption that much closer. <br /><br />we used to make the point incessantly that most of jewish practice has nothing to do with morality, but anyways, good luck with that. Every week there's another pedo story in FM.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10704885840004960450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-26201654167596250942013-12-22T06:53:36.244-05:002013-12-22T06:53:36.244-05:00You state:
"The existence of God is provable ...You state:<br />"The existence of God is provable by logic and philosophy and is addressed by far better authors than me so I won't go into that right now."<br /><br />I used to think that until I actually examined the various arguments and concluded that the existence of god is actually not provable. This has been addressed by far better authors than me so I won't go into that right now. At the end of the day someone either believes in a god or they don't. Gilesnoreply@blogger.com