tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post7390556241187242386..comments2024-01-30T12:26:03.019-05:00Comments on The Blog of Garnel Ironheart: A New Name For The MovementMighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-1881393364615546162011-08-12T16:15:14.389-04:002011-08-12T16:15:14.389-04:00You are missing a very important point which is: h...You are missing a very important point which is: how does Judaism deal with an innate sense or ethics and morality and what to do when halacha appears to conflict with that. Please read Eliezer Berkovitz regarding Torah true and torah tolerated and r. Eugene Korn(tradition 1997) entitled 'tzelem Elokim and the dialectic<br />of Jewish morality'. It isn't as cut and dry as you put it. And by the way, perhaps you would like to vent your spleen on r Falk(oz v'hadar levusha) who, as rav Henkin pointed out, simply makes up Halacha regarding tzniut.noamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06881836509222510744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-32807623949848343762011-08-11T15:27:13.369-04:002011-08-11T15:27:13.369-04:00JKRMommy, the problem is that their approach is pa...JKRMommy, the problem is that their approach is patently wrong.<br />Decisions on important halachic issues, especially those that involve changing something established as a universal minhag within the Torah community for centuries requires the input of the most important decisors in the world. YCT has no such members, nor have their sought out any poskim to support their position.<br />And I'm not talking about asking Rav Eliashiv about what he thinks of women leading kabbalas Shabbos. If they claim to be Modern Orthodox have they approached the leading poskim in that community? No. Do Rabbis Weiss, Kanefsky or any of the others have the depth of Torah learning and experience to carry the responsibility for issuing such an important psak? No. <br />Again, their problem is that their methodology is not Orthodox, their conclusions are not Orthodox but they continue to insist they are. That's the real problem.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-38753474457437608492011-08-11T13:04:18.434-04:002011-08-11T13:04:18.434-04:00Bob: What is "hidden" about their agend...Bob: What is "hidden" about their agenda?<br /><br />I do think that left-wing Modern Orthodoxy and Open Orthodoxy are "radical" in the sense that they challenge more right-wing Orthodox practices in a way that non-Orthodox groups do not. Non-Orthodox groups can simply be dismissed by saying "Hey, they don't follow halacha and don't recognize Torah mi'Sinai", or a condescending "what can you expect from people who never learned, they obviously need some kiruv". <br /><br />It's more challenging to accept that someone may have studied Judaism seriously and yet come to a different conclusion - not out of disregard for halacha, but out of deep respect for it.Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-89579914814827204062011-08-11T12:39:23.038-04:002011-08-11T12:39:23.038-04:00In case my description of Fabian socialism looks t...In case my description of Fabian socialism looks too much like a blast from the hoary past, see this book for an excellent dissection of a similar approach being used now in the US:<br />http://books.simonandschuster.com/Radical-in-Chief/Stanley-Kurtz/9781439155080Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-62678849146686629912011-08-11T12:20:58.897-04:002011-08-11T12:20:58.897-04:00Sort of depends what "within" is. One c...Sort of depends what "within" is. One could say that this movement is to heterodox movements what Fabian socialism is to Marxian socialism---a gradualist, deceptively moderate approach to achieve the same ends, operating within but not truly one with the host community.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-299590206895468542011-08-11T12:03:28.204-04:002011-08-11T12:03:28.204-04:00Last point first - "orthopraxy" is a fai...Last point first - "orthopraxy" is a fairly new term generally used to describe someone who goes along with typical Orthodox practices, often to appease others, but lacks genuine belief.<br /><br />I don't see the comparison to Open Orthodoxy - if anything, it's the opposite. They aren't going trying to blend in with the rest of the Orthodox world by going along with typical Orthodox practices. As you point out, they active challenge those that have "soft evidence". Calling it "Orthopraxy" suggests a lack of belief, and that sounds like an unjustified slur. Obviously, there is belief there - belief in the Torah, Written and Oral, and to the idea that clear-cut halachic guidelines exist. If there was no belief, it would be far easier to simply give up the effort to look at halacha and simply adopt the total egalitarianism of Reform or even Conservative Judaism. The issue is not a LACK of belief - it's a DIFFERENT approach within halacha.Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-36506450349652357372011-08-11T11:23:24.293-04:002011-08-11T11:23:24.293-04:00A hypothetical extreme example:
If an ostensibly ...A hypothetical extreme example:<br /><br />If an ostensibly Orthodox group forced all its women to walk around in opaque Ziploc bags with slits to see through, and put all objectors into cherem, this would be both<br />1. strict as regards concealment, and<br />2. in violation of Torah law in multiple ways<br /><br />A group so obsessed with strictness as to ignore 2., the totality of Torah law as conveyed through our Mesorah, could not be considered Orthodox in the sense of Torah-true.<br /><br />Thus, the Tzedukim of old did not earn any respect from the Rabbonim for adopting stringencies based on falsification or negation of our Mesorah. Quite the opposite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-12748152220312021382011-08-11T07:57:52.189-04:002011-08-11T07:57:52.189-04:00Devorah, you raise an interesting point that I'...Devorah, you raise an interesting point that I've mentioned before as well.<br />The problem with Orthodoxy and defining it is that there really is no right sided border to it. The odious Neturei Karta are "Orthodox" despite being a bunch of Jew-hating nutjobs with ugly glasses. Yes, it seems odd that basically decent and well-intentioned men like Weiss and Kanefsky get condemned as being un-Orthodox when the denizens of Meah Shearim don't despite acting like primitive savages.<br />However this doesn't change that there is a left border to Orthodoxy. You can only go so far and call yourself Orthodox and this is the reason for the strident criticism of the YCT crowd. Rabbis Weiss et al are free to do what they want. I'm not questioning their basic decency and virtue, chas v'shalom. But to do what they're doing and still call themselves Orthodox is false advertising. It's no different than when the Conservatives had as their motto "The authentic movement of traditional Judaism" back in the 80's and 90's. They can do what they want but that kind of representation is a lie.<br /><br />Rosten, you've hit on another important point: true halachic inquiry means asking a question and being will to accept that even an answer you don't want might be the right answer. Almost no one does this nowadays which is probably why we're in the mess we're in.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-60537441339825518432011-08-11T07:32:05.790-04:002011-08-11T07:32:05.790-04:00My feeling is that there is one specific path of T...My feeling is that there is one specific path of Torah with Talmud that leads to attachment with God.<br />I think if a woman or man teaches that path then they are teaching Torah. If they are not teaching that then they are not.<br />I.e. My idea is that Torah and Talmud define a specific path of service towards God.<br />I don't see any branch of Judaism teaching that path. The frum add restrictions to their constant delight. The fry take away what they want.<br />To none of these groups is what the Torah actually says determinate.<br />The modern orthodox do not add halacha but change the philosophy of the rambam to existentialism and the mizrachi changed the philosophy of Torah to make a Hegelian type of statist (state centered) philosophyAvraham https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822433921393627746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-35459196866944523352011-08-11T03:22:01.518-04:002011-08-11T03:22:01.518-04:00The curious thing is that when these "soft ev...The curious thing is that when these "soft evidence" points in the more right-wing, stringent direction, people bend over backwards to accommodate it. Masses of people stop learning and force their children not to earn a living? Okay. It's still orthodoxy. Increasingly rigorous rules regarding women's dress, now applicable to girls under age 4? It's still orthodoxy.<br /><br />And yet when the reverse is true, for some reason whenever the change is in any way promoting women, suddenly it's heresy.<br /><br />Do I love the idea of giving up a bracha? No. But the brachos itself varies wildly, as do most of the tefilos, between ashkenazim and sefardim, and even different types of ashkenasim and sefardim. We don't condemn any of those of heresy.<br /><br />We don't perform slavery nowadays. Why is that? Nor do we have multiple wives. Nor do we do metzizah b'peh (most of the time). Nor do we implement any punishment like whippings, floggings, strangulations, etc, because we've willingly disbanded any attempt at social justice because of how we're perceived in the world. <br /><br />I fail to understand how Rabbi Weiss giving power to some women to be Rabbis somehow threatens the existence of Orthodoxy as a whole. These are women learning from the very disciples you hold sacrosanct, are interested in upholding their principles, and somehow, because they don't have the same genitals as you do, their behavior is suspect of undermining orthodoxy. I just don't understand the big threat here.Devorahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-74554743947870030872011-08-10T14:58:04.541-04:002011-08-10T14:58:04.541-04:00SJ, what then, "shelo asani anything"?SJ, what then, "shelo asani anything"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-84061860857920573362011-08-10T14:32:29.561-04:002011-08-10T14:32:29.561-04:00Next step is for them to accept the modern psychol...Next step is for them to accept the modern psychology which says there's no such thing as gender.SJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10704885840004960450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-50198270161950482832011-08-10T13:44:48.034-04:002011-08-10T13:44:48.034-04:00I think that's an important point.
I recall re...I think that's an important point.<br />I recall reading an article a few years ago abou the annual Cosnervative meeting and how two minyanim were offered, egalitarian and traditional. The egalitarians got the large room while the traditionals got a small room at the back of the hotel and only after a fight from the egalitarians who were very opposed to being tolerant of another point of view!Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-38527045934066041942011-08-10T13:32:43.165-04:002011-08-10T13:32:43.165-04:00should read "may have" above1should read "may have" above1Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1097749014220347853.post-10418718544433883072011-08-10T13:32:08.388-04:002011-08-10T13:32:08.388-04:00They made have an eclectic approach, etc., but the...They made have an eclectic approach, etc., but the idea that they are open is open to question. The whole business looks like a Trojan horse, with an artfully hidden agenda.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.com