Navonim - The Ramblings of Garnel Ironheart

Navonim - The Ramblings of Garnel Ironheart
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Friday, 11 June 2010

More and More Evidence

First they told us that the stories about Avraham Avinu, a"h, must have been written at a much later date because there were no camels in the Middle East back around when our Avos lived.  Then they discovered there were camels.
They told us that the stories about Yetzias Mizrayim were all invented later on.  Then they discovered Pithom and Ramses and realized that no one other than someone who lived during that time would ever had heard of these cities since they fell into disuse and disappeared from history shortly after the Exodus. 
They told us Dovid haMelech, a"h, never existed because there was no mention of him anywhere in archeological finds.  Then they discovered those mentions.
They told us we weren't a real people descended from the Biblical Hebrews but rather a group of disaparate peoples who had come together over history into the current ethnic group.  And now genetics has answered that too.  It turns out that Jews around the world share a common genetic heritage that confirms our ancient peoplehood, putting to lie all those revisionist canards about our origins.
Researchers locate Jewish genetic linkage
A new study, the largest of its kind ever conducted, reveals that the Jewish people shares clear genomic significance. Apparently, the genetic similarity between a Jewish Italian and a Jewish Pole is larger than the similarity between Jewish Pole and a Christian Pole, for instance.
"The Jewish communities share much more (genetic information) between Jews rather than non-Jews in the same geographic area," Dr. Gil Atzmon, co-author of the study and professor of genetics at the Albert Einstein College of Genetics, told the New York Post.
Some 237 Jews of representing the three major Diaspora communities, including Ashkenazi Jews from throughout Europe, Sephardim, and Mizrahim from Syria, Iran, and Iraq, participated in the study.
Once again science has proven the truth of the Tanach. 
I'm not worried though.  "They" will simply move on to something else.  I don't think they have anything else to do all day.

9 comments:

SJ said...

One bit of proof, however true, means little in the grand scheme of things. There has to be multiple points of evidence to create a correlation; which I do believe exists, nevertheless for somewhat different reasons than you. XD

Jennifer in MamaLand said...

So how come (and I'm serious here, if a little dumb) we look so different?

White people have been in North America for hundreds of years, yet they haven't even started to resemble aboriginal peoples.

So, too, many of us look too European to seemingly come from the Middle East. That we tend to look like the Polish, British, Spanish etc., people around us wherever we lived.

Is that intermarriage? Hard to believe given the climate throughout most of our stay in Europe.

Sorry if this is a basic question.

Shilton HaSechel said...

As usual sources would be appreciated

>there were no camels in the Middle East back around when our Avos lived. Then they discovered there were camels.

Ahem, "they" said that there were no DOMESTICATED camels back then. Then "they" found a few camel bones in human settlements. Camel bones do not equal domesticated camels.

>that no one other than someone who lived during that time would ever had heard of these cities since they fell into disuse and disappeared from history shortly after the Exodus.

tsk tsk don't you have faith in a mesora?

>They told us we weren't a real people descended from the Biblical Hebrews but rather a group of disaparate peoples who had come together over history into the current ethnic group. And now genetics has answered that too. It turns out that Jews around the world share a common genetic heritage that confirms our ancient peoplehood, putting to lie all those revisionist canards about our origins.

Now I'm confused. All of today's Jews come from ONE tribe i.e. Yehuda. This does not show that all the tribes were homogeneous.

IMHO you have exaggerated the implications of all of these finds

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

> yet they haven't even started to resemble aboriginal peoples

The article never posited that there was genetic "purity" amongst Jews. There has obviously been mixing with local host populations and the article noted that different Jewish communities have different genetic variability based on the amount of mixing. The native example you brought is very relevant since that is one population Jews never really mixed with since by the time we arrived in North America the Europeans had banished them to hinterland reserves and residential schools so we never encountered them en masse.

> All of today's Jews come from ONE tribe i.e. Yehuda

Really? Tell that to a Levi and see what he says. Then go and read your Sefer Melachim where it describes the large number of refugees from the nine northern tribes who fled into Yehudah after Assyria destroyed their kingdom. Also remember that Yehudah was composed of three tribes: Yehuda, Binyamin and Shimon so no, all of today's Jews do not come from one tribe, sorry.

Shilton HaSechel said...

>Really? Tell that to a Levi and see what he says. Then go and read your Sefer Melachim where it describes the large number of refugees from the nine northern tribes who fled into Yehudah after Assyria destroyed their kingdom. Also remember that Yehudah was composed of three tribes: Yehuda, Binyamin and Shimon so no, all of today's Jews do not come from one tribe, sorry.

You're missing the point. The point is that there was this one small geographical area called Yehuda. Yes Levites and Benjamites hung out there but the overwhelming majority of the population was this tribe Yehuda (Shimeon doens't get mentioned again after Sefer Yehoshua if I remember correctly)

Now it makes sense that a minority of Levites and Benjamites would have similar genes to the Judeans because after all they lived in close proximity for hundreds of years under the same king.

What would be interesting is if a confirmed member of say the tribe of Dan who probably never set foot in Judea would have similar genes.

Also the genetic study you quote, on second thought, is completely irrelevant, because the interim between the "tribal" phase and the "world wide" dispersion phase was many hundreds of years. Let's assume just for arguments sake that the current Jewish population is descended equally from all 12 tribes. At a certain point in Jewish history these 12 tribes decided that they were really one tribe and all intermarried and lost their individual tribal identities (ignoring for a moment the Levites) This had obviously occured by the time of the Second Temple era when there is no further mention of separate tribal identities (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, this homogeneous mish mash of tribes pretty much sticks together for a while until it starts spreading out all over the world say at the beginning of the common era. The spreading out to different parts of the world would not follow tribal divisions! One would not expect Yissachar to go to Europe and Zevulun to go to Yemen for the simple reason that these identities were a thing of the past. Therefore the fact that Yemenites and Europeans etc. have similar genes tells us absolutely nothing about ancient Israelite tribal identities.

E-Man said...

However, this evidence that Garnel brings refutes the claims that Jews from europe are from Khazaria. Which is a claim that many have put forward after they learned that the Khazar kingdom converted to jduaism

LazerA said...

Just a brief comment on the tendency of Jews to resemble the people in the regions in which they live (e.g. dark haired/skinned Sephardim, light skinned (even blond and blue-eyed) Ashkenazim, etc.).

Firstly, it should be noted that these resemblances tend to be noticed far more by people from outside the region. In Europe, Jews were generally said - with some accuracy - to have a more "Oriental" appearance than the general population. I suspect that in North Africa, for example, Sephardic Jews are thought, by the surrounding population, to look more European than the general population.

In any event, while intermarriage, per se, probably had a minimal impact on the appearance of the Jewish population, this does not mean that there was no genetic input from the surrounding population. Asides from the slow influx of converts, there was also the fact that Jewish women and girls were often seen as safe targets for sexual aggression by men in the surrounding population. Rape was a major component of any pogrom, and there were certainly numerous children born of these tragic unions.

Halachicly, these children would be perfectly Jewish, and, in the case of married women, the children would be viewed, in Jewish law, as the legitimate children of the husband (רוב בעילות אחר הבעל).

Holy Hyrax said...

There is a great book called Abrahams Children. In there they talk about Ashkenazi males, they found, are pretty much descended from the Middle East, but the females are not.

Also, they record that there was in fact plenty of intermarriages. Look at Syrians and why they have red hair.

LazerA said...

Er, HH, how exactly does the female half of a population have a different ancestry from the male? I'm scratching my head over that one. Aren't the females the mothers of the males? Aren't the males and females siblings?