Navonim - The Ramblings of Garnel Ironheart

Navonim - The Ramblings of Garnel Ironheart

Tuesday, 25 August 2009

Taking Credit for the Good and the Bad

Rav Yonasan Rosenblum is one of the few mainstream Chareidi writers who is willing to question the sacred cows in his Chareidi community. While he doesn't go as far as some might, he does criticize far more than the other well-known writers who generally tend to be apologetic syncophants.
The problem is that Rav Rosenblum, after writing such a potentially heretical column, needs to backtrack in order to maintain his "street cred" within his community. Sometimes he manages to point out why his original criticism was valid while maintaining his obvious respect for the Chareidi community and its leadership. On occasion, especially if he's ruffled feathers, he falls back on the official party lines. In what is others a fine article on how Chareidim and the secular public should improve their interaction, he starts off with a classic:
No Torah Jew finds it difficult to justify Israeli government expenditures on Torah education. For us, it is clear that without the citadels of Torah that all the efforts of the IDF to protect us from the dangers all around will be for naught.
I've never liked this line. For one thing, it should not escape anyone's notice that the Chareidi yeshivos that are working so hard at defending the State of Israel are also very makpid on not saying the Tefilah l'Shlom HaMedinah or the MiSheberach for Tzahal. I doubt there's a Chareidi masgiach ruchani in Israel who has started the morning seder with a rousing "Let's go and defend the State!" Nor is there probably a single bochur who, while having difficulty with his shteiging, has said to himself "Come on Fishel! The State is counting on you!"
We all know the principle: Miztvos tzrichos kavannah. That kavannah is certainly lacking from the Chareidi community.
But let's just say that Rav Rosenblum is right. It isn't the bravery of the soldiers of Tzahal, or the religious soldiers amongst them, that is the real source of strength for the State, but rather everything rests on the shoulders of the Chareidi community. Fine.
Now keep in mind that the last two wars/military operations that Israel engaged in were not exactly stunning wins for the Kochav v'Lavan side.
Some might blame the army for poor planning. Others will remember that Ehud Olmert, the prime minister during both escapades, strongly looked like he wants to the fight the war to lose. Perhaps the Arabs were simply better prepared than Israel was prepared to admit.
Fortunately we don't have to think that anymore. If the Chareidim are going to credit themselves with being the real protectors of Israel then they need to hear this open message: You're doing a lousy job! Your learning sucks! Clearly this is the case because if you were up to snuff, would Tzahal have had such trouble in the last few years? Would Hamas and Hizbollah still be a threat to the State?
If the community is prepared to justify its refusal to engage in army service because of the great value of its Torah learning, then it must also explain why the State isn't doing so well militarily.


Josh said...

Right on the mark.
And how many shtenders are needed to guaranteee victory.
Of course any learning in hesder yeshivos does not count.

Shalmo said...

"I consequently have decided to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement that was launched by Palestinian activists in July 2005 and has since garnered widespread support around the globe. The objective is to ensure that Israel respects its obligations under international law and that Palestinians are granted the right to self-determination.

Nothing else has worked. Putting massive international pressure on Israel is the only way to guarantee that the next generation of Israelis and Palestinians -- my two boys included -- does not grow up in an apartheid regime."

Garnel Ironheart said...

Right, and what is the reason you have no interest in boycotting:

Sudan, because of Darfur
Britain, because of Northern Ireland
China because of Tibet
Indonesia because of East Timor
Russia because of Chechnya, Georgia, etc.

And I could go on.

Only one conflict seems to interest and excite you. Why? Because you are an anti-Semite. You hate Jews. Stop pretending, pull out your swastika and admit it proudly to the world already.

Shalmo said...

Actually Garnel that article is written by a fellow jew, and I agree with everything he said

Why should I bother with Russia or Sudan, before I fix my own backyard? The blacks take care of themselves, the muslims take care of themselves, and I likewise am doing the same; I am taking care of my own.

I hate the Haredi, no doubt about that. But I am also one who fights for Jewish survival. And Jewish survival cannot come at the price of genocide against an indiginous arab population.

Look around the world. Why do you think Jews everywhere are abandoning their religion? Why are reform, conservative and now even Orthodox suffering an epidemic of OTDs or the high rates of intermarriage and assimilation?

Why? Why? Why? Why?

Its because they are ASHAMED of being Jews. Because they know what Israel is doing is vile. Israel's actions are destroying Jewry the same way Jerry Falwell's rants made more and more christians quite christianity.

You need to get over this mythology of God playing real estate with that land. I have on numerous occassions showed that the biblical israel never existed so what you are trying to get back is nothing more than a far-fetched dream.

And unless religious zionists like you wake up to that undeniable reality, you are going to continue the decay of Jewish numbers.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

There were Jews who helped the Nazis. There were Jews who helped the Communists. No monopoly on stupidity.

Your own backyard? Please spare me the mock concern. You are not taking care of your own, except if you use "taking care of" in the same way the Mafia does.

As for Jewish survival, I would point out that WE are the indigenous population of Israel, the Arabs being relative latecomers only 1200 or so years ago. Unless you're going to tell me they're related to the Canaanites. Go on, I need a good laugh.

Why are Jews everywhere abandoning their religion? Because it's hard to be good, dude! Because in the Western world we live in a culture where "ME" is king and no one wants to worry that someone else, let along an invisible God, is telling them what they can eat, who they can touch, etc. It's not because they're ashamed of being Jewish. You're projecting because you're ashamed but look around. The real cause of assimilation is apathy. They know nothing about Judaism and they don't care to learn. Israel's actions may turn off a handful of self-hating, history-ignorant enemy-sympathizing idiots but they're by far an insignificant minority, albeit probably most of your social group.
And we're not disappearing by the way anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.

Off the Derech said...

>They know nothing about Judaism and they don't care to learn.

Like me? Right. I know ten times more than you do. Shmarnel.

Shalmo is right.

Sorry to disappoint.

E-Man said...

I didn't realize you hated Israel off the D? I thought you just didn't like the religion.

The truth is that shalmo makes up "facts" that are not true by any definition of the word. And I guess protecting yourself against people that want you dead is not allowed and is considered genocide. If you want to call self defense genocide then why not also put anyone who is attacked in jail when they defend themselves?

Shalmo said...

"As for Jewish survival, I would point out that WE are the indigenous population of Israel, the Arabs being relative latecomers only 1200 or so years ago. Unless you're going to tell me they're related to the Canaanites. Go on, I need a good laugh."

We have talked about this before Garnel. Here is what I said previously on this topic:

There is something important to bare in mind. The Arabs had control of and residence in Jerusalem for close to 13 centuries, which is as long a time or more than that for which the Bani Israel had sovereignty over the area from the conquest of Canaan in ca 1250 CE to the Roman invasion of 70 CE. The Arabs have just as much historical tie to the area as the Jews. So the idea that Jews have explicit right because their ancestors lived there God knows how long ago is ludicrous.

And here is the most important part. Many Jews are descendants from later converts (ever wonder about all those blond haired Jews...). Jews had largely already left prior to any Muslims coming in there, and no, it wasn't because the Romans kicked them all out. That's a distortion of history, Jews had been leaving for other lands for some time, such as to Egypt (Alexandria) and other areas, not out of persecutions, but for the same reason so many people in the "third world" leave their homelands today, economic opportunities. From what I recall, population estimates indicate that prior to the Roman sack, the majority of Jews were already living outside of Palestine. Even after the Roman sack of Jerusalem, there was still a Jewish presence in Palestine after that.

How can the descendants (thousands of years later) of people who voluntarily left, or whose ancestors were never there in the first place, lay any claim to the land today?

And ofcourse you will be skeptical, which is why I have made sure to get my information from a source even you can't deny:

"Writing in 1971, Salo W. Baron estimated the Jewish population within the borders of the Roman empire at just under 7 million, with slightly more than a million others living outside its borders, mostly to the east; the Jewish population of Palestine he placed at not higher than 2.5 million (Encyclopaedia Judaica [New York: Macmillan, 1972], vol. 13, p. 871). Paul Johnson writes “Though it is impossible to present accurate figures, it is clear that by the time of Christ the diaspora Jews greatly outnumbered the settled Jews of Palestine: perhaps by as many as 4.5 million to 1” (A History of Christianity [New York: Athenaeum, 1976], p. 12). Subsequent estimates generally fall between these extremes. Thus, Wayne Meeks in The First Urban Christians (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1983) estimates 1 million Jews in Palestine, 5 million to 6 million in the diaspora."

FROM: Encyclopaedia Judaica and Yale University Press

And we also discussed in detail why contrary to Torah, Israeli archaeology has consistently shown that Jews have never historically had access to all of biblical Canaan. Your mythological Eretz Yisrael never existed.

Off the Derech said...

E-Man: >I didn't realize you hated Israel off the D? I thought you just didn't like the religion.

I don't hate Israel. Or religion. I do have a problem with rabbis, however.

>The truth is that shalmo makes up "facts" that are not true by any definition of the word.

Even if that were true, he's in no way worse than most kiruv types and rabbi types you love and adore so much.

Shalmo said...

E-Man considering what I have seen you do on your blog, how you shamelessly pick and choose the most unreliable sources to verify your preconceptions of the Torah being right. Such as what you do when you go hunting for sources for the global flood, or the Exodus.

Worse still is that I have also read your discussions with Orthoprax and DrJ, both of whom also confirmed your dishonest cherry-picking on your own blog.

After I saw that, well I just cannot take you seriously at all which is why I don't bother with your blog.

I'm here discussing with Garnel because sooner or later I am hoping to beat Orthodox fundamenalism out of him.

Shalmo said...

Garnel read what I have written above. And then ponder what you are doing.

You cannot claim to love Jewry at the cost of continuing 60+ years of suffering on both sides.

The whole self-hating jew, antisemite, accusations against people criticizing Israel just does not work anymore in the year 2009.

The entire world has recognized who is at fault for this conflict, even fellow Jews from all camps and denominations. Everyone except hard-core zionists that is.

Unless you and people like you come out of that fictional world of "everybody hates us", "everybody is out to get us" things are not going to improve and this conflict will go on for another 60+ years and more Jews will leave.

Israel now seemingly has higher rates of emigration than immigration. So not only are Jews shrinking in the West, but Israel is losing numbers as well. Are you going to ignore all of this?

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

And while you're going on and on, Shalmo, I'm thinking "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..."

Please Shalom and OTD, go out and get lives. I hear they're on sale this week at Wal Mart.

Off the Derech said...

>I hear they're on sale this week at Wal Mart.

Not kosher.

E-Man said...

Shalmo, DrJ and orthoprax have never called me out. One post about a global flood was discussed with orthoprax and I admitted to being wrong. You are clearly a fool.and DRJ and orthoprax openly say so. Everything you say is twisted and a lie. I hope for your sack YOU stop quoting unreliable sources and attacking people unfoundedly. I understand that OTD is upset with Rabbis, but you seem to hate Judaism and Israel. Because of this hate there is no reason to discuss anything with you. You are never goping to stop lying or even admit that any source you quote is invalid. This is especially comical because you quote sources that u make up all the time. I am really amused when u try to quote any Jewish source because your translation is always so wrong and your understanding so skewerd. In all truth I pity someone who has nothing better to do than spread lies about Judaism and Israel.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

E-man, the best way to deal with guys like Shalmo is simply to ignore their uninformed challenges.

I quite like the stuff you put up, except that my last comment at your site on traditional Judaism (good post but I had some differing thoughts) disappeared into the ether.

Don't let them get under your skin. Just keeping doing what you like and concentrate on the interactions with people whose opinion you respect.

E-Man said...

Oh NO, why did it disappear? That stinks I would have loved to hear what you thought about it and where you disagreed. I would have liked a good discussion on that. Not like the discussion Baruch and I had with Chaim B. He was just clearly misinformed. If you have the patience to comment again I would love to read it.

Keep up the good work.