The mishnah in Zevachim 73 brings the following case: A kli sharet made of copper is used to cook a sacrifice. The kli needs to be scoured and rinsed to remove traces of the sacrifice to avoid the problem of nosar. Before the kli can be cleaned, it leaves the Temple courtyard and while outside becomes tamei. The vessel still needs to be scoured and rinsed but because it's tamei it can't be brought back to the Temple and it's only the Temple that it can be cleansed.
The Mishnah's solution is for someone to punch a hole in the utensil so that it loses its designation as a kli. Once that happens, it's no longer tamei and can be brought back to the Temple where it can be scoured.
However, I have a question: while the Mishnah's solution obviously works, it is my understanding that metal utensils can be made tahor by immersion in a mikveh. Why does the Mishnah not offer that as a solution in addition to punching a hole in it?
Is there are special rule about utensils that are kli shares? Or is the answer because the Mishnah first talks about doing the same for an earthenware utensil (which cannot be purified by immersion) so it simply brings the parallel case for a copper utensil?
Anyone know the answer?
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15 comments:
You have a typo in your posting the daf is 94b. I am not very mobile at the moment so I was not able to verify if anyone talks about this. My initial thought is that this is a dirty pot - thus you have to wait to clean it in the mikdash. Obviously you can't be toivel a dirty pot due to chatziza issues
Midwest
Thanks anon, I was trying to look this and couldn't find it here
First, the text:
מתני' בגד שיצא חוץ לקלעים נכנס ומכבסו במקום קדוש נטמא חוץ לקלעים קורעו יב] נכנס ומכבסו במקום קדוש כלי חרס שיצא חוץ לקלעים נכנס ושוברו במקום קדוש נטמא חוץ לקלעים נוקבו ונכנס ושוברו במקום קדוש כלי נחשת שיצא חוץ לקלעים נכנס ומורקו ושוטפו במקום קדוש נטמא חוץ לקלעים פוחתו ונכנס ומורקו ושוטפו במקום קדוש
I think: מורקה ושוטפה has to be done in the Beis Hamikdash and you cannot toivel the utensil while dirty. Yeah, like anon. But I;m not familiar anough with the halachos of מורקה ושוטפה to give a qualified answer.
The Tiferes Yisroel discusses at length and mentions the teretz I suggested
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37947&st=&pgnum=127
Midwest
I'll have to go back and learn Z'vahim. Haven't looked in a very long number of years. BUT, I will verify that the m'rikah u'shtifah is required to be done in the mikdash, in the azarah. This is learned from a beged, which is explicitly stated in the Torah in Seder Vayikra as requiring kibus b'makom kadosh, and the kelim mentioned in the next pasuk are learned from that. And all of that is because of notar.
And Dr. Garnel's question stands, I think. After all, I can do simple cleaning outside the Mikdash and then t'vilah, and then bring the kli into the azarah for m'rikah u'shtifah, no?
As I say, I haven't looked in Z'vahim in too many years. Now I have an excuse to go look..
hey anon, don't you know? some chareidim don't allow learning the Tiferes Yisrael.
The answer to the gemara is http://www.getiton.com/ XD
1) Let's stay away from pokes against folks on this one.
2) As to the suggested answer: until now I have assumed that superficially cleaning is one thing, and a deep cleaning to remove the absorbed material of the korban from the walls of the vessel is a second part but from my investigation it seems that a good scrubbing is all that is needed. If that's the case, then the teiretz works. The only time this would be an issue is if the vessel is still visibly dirty and then it has to be cleaned in the Temple. Is that it?
SJ, in all honesty why would you go out of your way to post here a link that a) is completely irrelevant, and b) you must know would likely be offensive to the folks participating in, especially, this sort of discussion?
If I wanted to parody you, I would say that it is precisely that sort of disrespect for others and their religious values/sensitivities that turned me off to secularism...
Ok I admit it. Haredim are the bacon of respect for others.
SJ, you still haven't directly answered my objection. Nor did I get your last joke, sorry. Nor am I fan particularly of haredi subculture.
So, again. Was posting that link merely to titillate your frustrated evolving ego; or was it to display the superiority of secular respect for others?
Or were we supposed to simply conclude the obvious, and disregard you altogether?
Mordechai, the answer to your questions, is http://www.adultfriendfinder.com/
I thought I had posted this earlier
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14562&st=&pgnum=172
There is a machlokes Rishonim if Mrika requires kashering or a cleaning. See last paragraph and following pages for references . Even if the pot must be boiled that does imply that the total cleaning including the scrubbing need not be done in the Mikdash. Some of his other comments may be helpful in understanding the Tosphes Yom Tov. For those who are unaware of R' Dovid Rappaport, he died in the siege of Leningrad and had said a shiur by Reb Elchonen. He wrote the Sefer at a very young age.
Midwest
Good job, Midwest. Thanks for the sources.
Good job everyone, esp Midwest. I'll print stuff out and try to put up a coherent answer in a few days.
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